pizzaback-deactivated20201011 asked:

What would you do if one of your children were trans? kick them out of your home? send them to conversion therapy? deny their identity until they hate themselves for it? I'm always curious to know how radfem mothers would handle an actual trans person entering their lives.

slaybia-majora-deactivated20160 answered:

My children wouldn’t feel the need to “identify” as anything other than themselves because they understand that how they look and what they wear doesn’t change anything. They are smart enough to know that sex can’t be changed and that nothing is “feminine” or “masculine”.  

slaybia-majora:

4thwavenow:

dbrvnk:

I can totally see what you are saying with this. At the same time though… it does seem like you are seriously underestimating the influence of the outside world on children. Kids can and do develop certain identities/disorders regardless of how their parents raise them—whether that’s an eating disorder or a gender identity disorder—and it really doesn’t help much to tell a child with an obsessive hatred of/dissociation from their own body that that body is perfect the way it is, any more than it would help an anorexic.

What I’m saying is… accept that we live in a society that hates gender nonconformance, a society where kids become trans. Your parenting can try to prevent that, but you’ve got no guarantee of succeeding. Certainly go after adults and authority figures who try to pressure kids into transitioning (doctors etc) but like… if a child wants to transition and is feeling suicidal or wants to hurt themselves because of it, it really does not help to say ‘oh just do feminine/masculine things, don’t mutilate your beautiful body!’, that’s like telling a person with depression ‘but you have it so good! look at all the wonderful things you have!’. It makes matters worse and entrenches the need to transition even more firmly in the kid.

I’m not a parent so I can’t offer any actual advice, but I think it’s important for gender-critical parents to move away from the idea that ‘in an ideal world, no one would ever have to transition!’. First of all that’s not necessarily true, second of all, we don’t live in that world. Support people with sex/gender dysphoria, support people who transition, support people who detransition (this is important! detransitioning is not a horrible fate of doom)—reserve your criticism and negativity for the industries that create them, the ‘allies’ pushing dubious theory, and ofc the late transitioning rich white male fetishists who are even making this a whole thing in the first place

I mean I don’t intend any offense or anything and I have no idea what your situation is irl, maybe this isn’t even relevant to you lol. But it is one place I think there’s kind of a ‘generation gap’ of understanding and maybe that’s why this post is causing so many arguments? I don’t even know I can delete this if it’s stupid

You raise some interesting points here. There is such a delicate balance with teenagers, who tend to discount their parents’ advice and opinions about just about everything. And at this stage of life, it’s easy to want to act NOW, future consequences be damned.

It’s hard to “support” transition itself if you really feel (as I do) that it would be harmful. What I can do is understand why a person would want to transition, and point to alternatives. I just wish “gender” therapists and trans activists showed more interest in those alternatives.

And yeah: the people driving this runaway train are “the ‘allies’ pushing dubious theory, and ofc the late transitioning rich white male fetishists who are even making this a whole thing in the first place.”

Pretty much what 4thwavenow said.

People seem to think that if one of my children came to me and told me they would rather be a different gender than I would suddenly hate them and throw them out onto the street, but that couldn’t be farther from the truth. If I were ever faced with that, they would need me even more than ever and abandoning one of my children is never an option to me.

The bottom line is that I would find them the help they needed to get to the root of why they felt it necessary to transition as opposed to simply and suddenly forcing them into a transition they may regret.

What’s tough is finding the help that gender nonconforming kids need to NOT transition in the professional community; there is currently a bias with therapists and some doctors to simply agree right off the bat with a kid who says, “I’m transgender.” The whole basis of current trans activism is “informed consent” (i.e., very little in the way of “gatekeeping” for anyone who says they are trans) and self-identification: If I say I’m trans, I am. Period. 

Also, kids often go to a therapist already armed with what to say/how to act based on what they’ve imbibed on Reddit, YouTube, and Tumblr. They get coached how to convince therapists to write that letter that will get them hormones.

pressure to transition trans pressure
vulvapeople

vulvapeople:

immortaltransprincess:

4thwavenow:

“Last month, in a program specifically addressed to medical students, Dr. Johanna Olson, director of the LA Children’s Hospital transgender children clinic, admitted that she has been “skipping the blockers” and placing children as young as twelve directly on cross-sex hormones, starting with her very first patient…

Prior to her work transgendering children Dr. Olson …used her medical credentials to testify against a …platform to lower the voting age. Dr. Olson testified that the brains of those under eighteen were not yet competent for the complex decision making involved in choosing a political candidate. “

********************************************************

A 17-year-old is too immature to vote, but has the wisdom to make a medical decision that will require lifetime treatment, and permanently alter the brain and body. 

Ok….

Trans children and adults have to strongly push for a diagnosis. It is not easy. If parents or doctors pushed children into identifying as transgender when they are simply non-conforming, that would definitely be child abuse, but there is no evidence that this happens

Doctors have been diagnosing GID in kids as young as 18 months.

The doctor this article is about, Johanna Olson, is administering HRT to adolescents, sterilizing them, in defiance of WPATH standards, and she claims that no child ever changes his/her mind about transitioning.  Excuse me if I don’t believe your claim that it’s hard to get a diagnosis, especially in Johanna Olson’s office.

vulvapeople gnc kids gnc teens trans pressure trans kids
dbrvnk-deactivated20151108

pizzaback-deactivated20201011 asked:

What would you do if one of your children were trans? kick them out of your home? send them to conversion therapy? deny their identity until they hate themselves for it? I'm always curious to know how radfem mothers would handle an actual trans person entering their lives.

slaybia-majora-deactivated20160 answered:

My children wouldn’t feel the need to “identify” as anything other than themselves because they understand that how they look and what they wear doesn’t change anything. They are smart enough to know that sex can’t be changed and that nothing is “feminine” or “masculine”.  

dbrvnk:

I can totally see what you are saying with this. At the same time though… it does seem like you are seriously underestimating the influence of the outside world on children. Kids can and do develop certain identities/disorders regardless of how their parents raise them—whether that’s an eating disorder or a gender identity disorder—and it really doesn’t help much to tell a child with an obsessive hatred of/dissociation from their own body that that body is perfect the way it is, any more than it would help an anorexic.

What I’m saying is… accept that we live in a society that hates gender nonconformance, a society where kids become trans. Your parenting can try to prevent that, but you’ve got no guarantee of succeeding. Certainly go after adults and authority figures who try to pressure kids into transitioning (doctors etc) but like… if a child wants to transition and is feeling suicidal or wants to hurt themselves because of it, it really does not help to say ‘oh just do feminine/masculine things, don’t mutilate your beautiful body!’, that’s like telling a person with depression ‘but you have it so good! look at all the wonderful things you have!’. It makes matters worse and entrenches the need to transition even more firmly in the kid.

I’m not a parent so I can’t offer any actual advice, but I think it’s important for gender-critical parents to move away from the idea that ‘in an ideal world, no one would ever have to transition!’. First of all that’s not necessarily true, second of all, we don’t live in that world. Support people with sex/gender dysphoria, support people who transition, support people who detransition (this is important! detransitioning is not a horrible fate of doom)—reserve your criticism and negativity for the industries that create them, the ‘allies’ pushing dubious theory, and ofc the late transitioning rich white male fetishists who are even making this a whole thing in the first place

I mean I don’t intend any offense or anything and I have no idea what your situation is irl, maybe this isn’t even relevant to you lol. But it is one place I think there’s kind of a ‘generation gap’ of understanding and maybe that’s why this post is causing so many arguments? I don’t even know I can delete this if it’s stupid

You raise some interesting points here. There is such a delicate balance with teenagers, who tend to discount their parents’ advice and opinions about just about everything. And at this stage of life, it’s easy to want to act NOW, future consequences be damned.

It’s hard to “support” transition itself if you really feel (as I do) that it would be harmful. What I can do is understand why a person would want to transition, and point to alternatives. I just wish “gender” therapists and trans activists showed more interest in those alternatives.

And yeah: the people driving this runaway train are “the ‘allies’ pushing dubious theory, and ofc the late transitioning rich white male fetishists who are even making this a whole thing in the first place.”

dbrvnk-deactivated20151108 gender critical parenting trans parenting pressure to transition trans pressure gnc kids gnc teens trans kids trans teens

“Young teens go into these communities with problems that are incredibly typical, like feelings of not fitting in with peers, or liking clothing or activities that are seen as being “for” the opposite sex. They are told that even questioning their gender means that they are trans, and to get on puberty blockers or hormones as soon as possible. Again and again, the idea that taking one’s life is a natural and inevitable consequence of not being able to get these medications is reinforced.”

trans pressure pressure to transition trans kids trans teens transgender reality.com gnc kid gnc teens gender nonconforming
“There is not one straightforward explanation for the increase in referrals but it’s important to note that gender expression is diversifying, which makes it all the more important that young people have the opportunity to explore and develop their...

There is not one straightforward explanation for the increase in referrals but it’s important to note that gender expression is diversifying, which makes it all the more important that young people have the opportunity to explore and develop their own path with the support of specialist services.”

If “gender expression” is truly diversifying, why not leave these kids alone to, you know, express themselves  without the “support” of “specialist services.” 

With support like that….why, you might even get a diagnosis! 

************************

Online article dated 8th April 2015 is behind a paywall.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/article4404513.ece

gender critical parenting trans pressure pressure to trans gnc kids gnc teens trans kids trans teens

[–]repugnent said:

“Research has shown that children form a gender identity as young as 18 months to three years of age. It is widely agreed that at this point that gender, including gender as it is experienced by gender variant children, is solidified early on.”

Where are people getting this misinformation? FFS, this child is five. My mom works at preschool, and she told me not too long ago that she had to explain to a child that a teacher with short hair was in fact, a woman. Or what about the research showing that most children with gender dysphoria lose it after puberty? This is what disturbs me most about the phenomena. The research that has been done is very clear and yet is routinely ignored, even in mainstream news outlets.

I find these childhood transgender accounts disturbing. It’s one thing when adults decide to transition, but to pigeonhole a 5 year old and relegate them to a lifetime of hormones, surgery and infertility, one should expect caution. Instead it’s the exact opposite; Louis Theroux asked this of a psychologist in his recent documentary, and she responded more or less “it’s this or suicide.” And this mother seems downright giddy about having a trans child.

[–]generibusGrammatical Gender[S] said:

It seems to be one of those things that people just repeat over and over until everyone thinks it’s true. I have a four year old and he is NOT very clear on the differences between the sexes, yet alone some mysterious “gender identity”.

[–]DoubleXMarksTheSpot said:

My younger daughter refused to let me buy her a girl’s swimsuit, insisting on the trunk-like suit for boys, and a tank top sort of shirt on the top. She also wanted “boys’ skates,” and wanted to play ice hockey. She wore baggy clothes and even changed her name for a couple of years.

Go forward half a decade or so, and she’s into manicures, make-up and colouring her hair.

What did we do? Exactly nothing.

This media coverage is so damaging for some families, who feel that if they don’t do something about their child’s experimentation with their identities, they’ll kill themselves. There’s even a local politician who has introduced legislation she has dubbed “Leela’s Law,” that professes to ban conversion therapy for gays, lesbians and transgender kids, but basically targets this one clinic that has come under fire from activists for not promoting transgender identities at the expense of all other treatments for troubled kids in its care.

People are terrified their kids are going to die. I have spoken out against Leela’s Law on Facebook, and the first reaction I got was from the 16 year old daughter of a friend who said, “Kids are killing themselves from dysphoria every day. Don’t discount dysphoria.” (I replied that I feel children should be allowed to express themselves independent of the straightjacket of socially determined gender identities, and she agreed.)

I have slowly started to speak out against these misconceptions in RL (with a mostly positive response). There needs to be pushback in the mainstream media and not just in subreddits and radical feminist blogs.

[–]generibusGrammatical Gender[S] said:

“We tried to steer P’s choices of boy clothing to days when it would not be too problematic”

What on earth would be “problematic” about a girl wearing “boy clothes”? This is another family with extremely rigid gender roles.

**********************************************************

“Widely agreed”  that a child of 18 months has a set gender identity??

I have recently posted links to research studies that are even acknowledged by WPATH, the main organization focusing on transgender health, refuting the idea that toddlers have a set gender identity. Most (75% or more) “dysphoric” children outgrow their feelings of body dissociation and grow up to be gay or lesbian!

Why is the mainstream media falling in line with this garbage?

gender critical parenting trans parenting trans pressure GNC kids GNC teens trans teens trans kids

No, you don’t “care” about my child

So I have figured out a few things vis-à-vis the few (and they have been few, so far) people who personally attack me, claiming they only do so because they ”care” about my child. By “attack” I mean character assassination, not respectful debate.

First, they believe without an iota of doubt that there is such a thing as a “male” or “female” brain. And one’s male or female brain absolutely must dictate what sort of body it is attached to. Second, they believe that even a toddler innately knows which brain they have. When that child says “I feel like a girl” or “I feel like a boy” that subjective experience is objective reality, and no one—no one—has the right to question it. Ever. The only viable option is to support their assertion with all that modern medicine and pharmaceutical products can supply. Even questioning this orthodoxy amounts to child abuse.

The people who vomit their bile on me believe a child’s self-professed gender is as hard-wired and as objectively indisputable as their left elbow. They fervently believe this even if said child is of the age where they are also saying they are –or they wish they were–a dog or a tractor or Spiderman or a princess. They don’t think gender is a social construction. They don’t believe life experiences might mold a child’s idea of gender. No, the gender cake was already baked while they were in the womb. So if a kid is referred to and treated as the opposite gender–by parents, teachers, doctors, psychologists–from the time they’re 2 years old, if they’re on puberty blockers, if they are indoctrinated that this means they are “transgender,” those years of experience won’t have ANY influence on whether they choose to medically transition later. No pressure at all! Case closed.

For all their supposed knowledge of neuroscience, they never seem to have read anything from the decades of research pertaining to pediatric brain development, the years of childhood make-believe, of confusion of fantasy with reality…the relatively new knowledge that the frontal lobes of the brain—judgment, decision-making, awareness of future consequence, impulse control, self monitoring–don’t develop until age 25. None of that has any bearing on the Gender is Set in Stone at Birth dogma.

And their ideology is as impervious as granite. It’s all nature, no nurture. To these people, 15 years of a girl being told she is actually a “he” couldn’t possibly influence a biological girl (oops, I mean, “assigned female at birth”) to move on to medical transition when she’s older, even if, actually, she’s a girl who would have grown up to be a lesbian (which is what statistics say usually happens) if she had just been left alone to figure it out on her own.

The transactivists are not interested in any research that could cast doubt on their hypothesis . They only want to cherry pick studies that claim there is a male or female brain. Even though THOSE studies have been disputed, and generally have a subject base consisting mostly of trans people who’ve already transitioned and been on hormones for years. And, of course, the conclusion they draw from those flawed studies is that the brain dictates the body it’s attached to, period. Hell, I even saw someone crowing about an article touting head transplants in the future for trans people. Cut off your “male” or “female” head and attach it to a donated body of the opposite sex! Problem solved.

I’ve mostly engaged in civil dialogue online. I came here in the first place because there aren’t many people raising the questions I am, from the perspective of a parent who cares enough to dig deeper, and I want that point of view to be heard. And I want other lefty parents like me to have a place to go where they aren’t dismissed as ogres and transphobes. Where they aren’t told that–simply by questioning, by expressing doubts–they are personally responsible for the suicides of troubled teenagers.

In my short time here, I’ve learned a ton about what it is really like to have gender/physical dysphoria, to have the intense desire to transition to the other sex. I respect that experience. I’ve talked with people who have medically transitioned, and I’ve adjusted my views based on things they tell me. I’ve been humbled; I’ve learned, and I’ve opened a few minds myself. I’m doing this in good faith, and most other people seem to be doing the same. Those of us who are running “serious” theme blogs have a purpose outside entertainment. We feel like we have something important to say. Disagreements I’ve had are generally respectful. I have zero interest in making enemies of people I don’t even know. I have better things to do with my time.

But, like anywhere else on the Internet, there are a few haters. Because I am running a blog which dares to question the trans orthodoxy, I occasionally get drive-by vitriol, usually from kids who are angry at their own parents. I get told I am a terrible mother, an abuser even, of my daughter (except they always say “son” based on the sparse personal information I’ve shared here, if they’ve even read that, which I doubt).  Apparently my “son” is exactly the same as all the other “sons” out there, despite the suddenness of all this, and how it only arose after a short time of binging on certain Internet snack bars .

They claim to “care” about my child, they are “scared” for her, they are “worried” for her; they automatically assume it’s “him” because remember—if anyone, anywhere simply says they might be trans, then that is the word of god from on high. It is sacrosanct.

I’m not naïve or stupid. I knew venturing onto Tumblr would be—let’s say, a rough and tumbl ride at times—and I’m not going to let myself be destroyed or derailed by the words of a hateful or unhinged stranger online. Haters gonna hate.

But I will say this to those few shit-throwers:

You don’t know me. You don’t know my family. You don’t know my daughter—hell, call her my son, I don’t care. You don’t have the slightest idea where we are in this process. You are clueless about what kind of parent I am. And most importantly: You do not “care” about my child. You don’t “worry” about her. You’re not “scared” for her. I’m the one who is doing that. Your feigned “caring” is just a way to lash out at someone who is daring to raise questions about a dogma you have imbibed, and it bothers you. You don’t want anyone upsetting your apple cart.

I’m not changing my Ask box policy. If you send me hate, you go straight to the trash bin. All you’ll get is the chance to briefly spew your cyber-bile onto a stranger. If that floats your boat, knock yourself out. But it won’t make me shut up. Most of all, don’t flatter yourself that you “care” about my child, so you might as well let go of that little self-aggrandizing delusion.

And to the ones who scream “Unfollow me!!!!” (which I invariably do): Did it ever occur to you that following a blog is sometimes a way to learn something new? Just something to consider.

gender critical parenting gnc kids gnc children trans pressure trans teens gnc teens gender nonconforming trans parenting
roslynholcomb-deactivated201803

roslynholcomb:

roslynholcomb:

4thwavenow:

roslynholcomb:

4thwavenow:

Tomboys, unite.

I read these notes especially the kids talking about their parents and it sounds like something out of another century. It’s incredible to me that with all these fabulous female athletes around that parents are still telling their kids that being a female jock is “masculine.” Or that no guy will like them. It’s crazy because I remember my sister being a phenomenal athlete back in the 70s and it was no big deal. The softball team she was on was even called The Tomboys. Yeah, we had to wear froufrou dresses, but that was only for Easter or Christmas. The rest of the time we wore what all the kids wore; jeans and t-shirts. My niece who grew up in the 80s was a terrific athlete as well. Played on the boy’s basketball team, and no one made a thing of it except that she was small and everyone was afraid she’d get hurt. 

So what in the holy hell has happened in the past few decades that we now have folk talking like it’s the 1950s again? (Not even the fifties because my aunt was a “yardman” back then because the pay was better than being a maid and she preferred to be outside, and no one called her a man, though she wore overalls every day and was a butch lesbian.) Is this some kind of backlash against feminism? Because it’s depressing as all hell to read these posts where a girl thinks because she likes science and jeans that she’s somehow not a girl. People have personalities. I didn’t like dolls either. My mama loved them, but never said we had to be boys because we didn’t. Something has gone terribly awry here and it’s just sad to read about.  

Every day I wonder how we went so far backwards in terms of women’s liberation. If you’d told me in 1985 that this is where things would be 30 years later, I wouldn’t have believed it.

The scary thing is, it happened to quickly. While women were being distracted by all manner of fuckery our daughters have been left to fend for themselves. And yeah, here there be dragons. 

I guess it’s sort of like “hipster racism.” We had a generation of parents who believed that being “colorblind” was the way to deal with racism. Unfortunately, that’s not how it works. You have to openly address differences and explain to your children why treating people differently because of them is wrong. If parents simply accepted their sons who want to wear nail polish and daughters who want to play baseball as they are there would be no “dysphoria,” because it seems in all these cases thus far the so-called gender norms are being policed by their own parents. 

When my son was about a year and a half old he asked for a baby doll we saw in the discount bin at a big box store. It only cost $5 so I got it for him. He loved that doll and though I thought his dad might have problems with it, he was like “how else is he going to learn how to be a dad?” And that was that. He also had a tea set and loved to have tea parties. He played sports and other people often comment that he’s “all boy,” (yeah, that’s annoying) yet he can sing all the songs from Frozen and berated me for calling it a “girl movie,” (I know, bad feminists, but dammit I can only listen to those damned songs for so long.) 

In other words, it would seem to me that maybe dysphoria, at least in these very young kids could be very much an issue with parents and parenting. It’s typical at these ages to rebel and reject parental norms. If parents are very focused on gender norms, it may well be possible that dysphoria is informed by that. Sounds to me that if these posts are valid, rather than treating the kids with drugs and surgery, we might want to do some type of treatment with the parents instead. 

roslynholcomb-deactivated201803 gender critical parenting trans parenting trans teens trans kids trans pressure detransition trans children gender nonconforming children

I have scoured the Internet several times, hunting for parents and “helping” professionals outside the religious rightwing who question the dominant trans paradigm, particularly as it pertains to the medical “transition” of children and teenagers. There are a few trans/gender-critical comments on articles and blogs, and a few gender critical blogs (that I’ve linked to in other posts), but otherwise it’s pretty much an intellectual desert.

But there is one psychotherapist who has been brave enough to question. The link is one of the posts on her blog, all of which are worth reading.

“Things I think right at this moment and I’m sure I’m forgetting something:

..That there is peer pressure to transition. That young people coming of age today come out into the queer community and not necessarily the gay, lesbian or bisexual communities. People have complained about a movie that a group of young people made about GLBT issues saying there was too much in it that was trans. That is looking at youth through a very old lens. We need new glasses. Young people today come out into the queer community which has trans youth. They also come out into a world where people explore body modification in a way that did not exist previously. They can pierce and tattoo and so taking the leap to sculpting with medical technology isn’t much of a hop.

…Another component is that as a society we have medicalized so many problems. This DSM included grief. We have social problems that we have individualized and taken out of the social context.
We don’t resist as a group anymore. We take medication.   

We constantly compare gender to the gay liberation movement. Unlike being gay or lesbian, there really are other issues that can look like gender dysphoria and people who talk with friends or read on the internet about how to present to us to get what they believe they need are doing the best they can to fix something that is terribly wrong inside them but we all have to do a better job.”

gender critical parenting trans kids trans teens transition pressure trans pressure trans parenting